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Talk:Troll/Archive 2
Live Tavros with legs Should we put the new picture of live Tavros with legs, as well as live Aradia in the gallery? Although if we started their we'd probably end up putting Eight pupil Vriska and non-blind Terezi in as well. I'm not going to edit anything just yet, just wanted peoples opinions on the matter.Drunken Lemur 05:02, February 15, 2011 (UTC) :Healthy Vriska and Terezi are indeed already featured in their respective sprite galleries. Live Aradia hasn't had a sprite aside from the god tier one yet, and probably never will, so that's the one we're supposed to use; on the other hand, Dead Tavros did recently have a sprite. I don't know, since we're trying not to clutter things up too much around here and the sprite doesn't really have any particular features apart from the white eyes, I guess we don't really need it unless Dead Tavros gets to be a major character in the future. --[[User:RomancePhilologist|'romancePhilologist']] 10:41, February 15, 2011 (UTC) ::And just for completions sake: Live Aradia had a sprite appearance in a flashback and it is in the article already, dead Tavros is their as well (as is an alive version that's not crippled, two actually since there's also his Pupa outfit). So basically all the sprites you mentioned are already there...and have been for a while I thinkBitterLime 11:43, February 15, 2011 (UTC) :: ::No, see I was talking about putting them in the gallery of the trolls page. I knew those sprites existed, I just didn't know if it was alright to use them on this page. I assume that we're just using the ones that were introduced with, except for Tavros.Drunken Lemur 15:58, February 15, 2011 (UTC) ::: oh I get it now...derp.:B Well I really don't think it matters much. I'm 0kay with Roboleg Tavros but normal legs are fine too. I think, in general, it should be the introduction sprite, but his wheelchair doesn't fit in with the other standing sprites well.BitterLime 16:23, February 15, 2011 (UTC) Too much Content? I dont mean to be annoying, but there is so much pics and content on the trolls and so little on the kids. im just saying we should maybe we should add more content on the Gaurdians and the kids. -Jack :Well, there are 12 trolls in lieu of 4 kids, and troll culture needs to be extensively explained whereas human culture obviously doesn't. Concerning images, though, I concur that people just drop any kind of stuff here; I mean, the new zodiac .gif sure looks nice, but do we really need it? --[[User:RomancePhilologist|'romancePhilologist']] 23:09, February 20, 2011 (UTC) :Well i just fell like it needs to be more balenced out. It might just be me but i think the kids need more content. Correct me if im wrong. :- Jack Blackstone Noses *cough* ...Hussnasty Mode. BitterLime 20:23, April 24, 2011 (UTC) Start button Who the heck added that? I mean i would be okay if it werent dumbly wrong and vague. Those are 10 colors not 11 and its kinda vague to conect every fucking rainbow with the homospectrum. It's too big That's what she.....NO! Okay everyone, I think this page is simply too huge...making it cluttered, unorganised and less helpful (the article...not this talk page, although it also holds true for the talk page). Who else thinks that we should split this page somehow? I suggest we take out the "blood and caste" section and turn it into a seperate page called "hemospectrum". Then we could just put a short section on blood color in this article and have it say "Main article: Hemospectrum". Similar to how we did it on the Denizens page. I don't feel comfortable with just going ahead and doing a big change like that though, so I want some opinions first. BitterLime 07:46, October 1, 2011 (UTC) ::That makes sense, actually. I'd be willing to get behind that project. ashdenej 17:49, November 10, 2011 (UTC) ::: One yes is good enough for me. If there are no nay sayers in the next few days I say we make it hapen.BitterLime 20:54, November 12, 2011 (UTC) 14 or more trolls? Ok according to Wikipedia there are more than the twelve signs and Ophiuchus. Apparently there are more (Mithuna and Cetus) if Andrew Hussie uses these trolls (not likely) that might mean we will have 14 or 15 more trolls. This means it is likely not the end of the astrological signs in Homestuck. But of course it probobly is. If see any more signs post now. We have to make sure we don't miss any signs if there are like 1,0000 of them. In the new update on March 7th, it show 2 new trolls on one page, but they promptly get killed on the next. They have different signs on their shirts, so those signs might be the other zodiacs. 22:21, March 9, 2013 (UTC) Revelation Speculation Okay so Marquise is in this session. Does this mean all (Except Condece who is the replacement for the Black Queen now) the ancestors are in this session? MatrixGod 14:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC) And UU is the Sufferer... Oh shit I understand the post scratch trolls MatrixGod 14:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :You "understand the post scratch trolls", huh? The Light6 14:44, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :i belive that she is ust the "co-player" that UU keeps mentioning. 14:47, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::UU would have multiple co-players, there is no reason this troll has to be one that UU has referred to so far. The Light6 14:49, February 19, 2012 (UTC) It wouldn't make sense if only Marquise and the (likely) Signless playing. We have seen that at least 4 people are needed to play a game. Also it's a scratched game meaning that all the ancestors (once again NOT the Condece) have been scratched. 15:59, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Also The Light: yes. 8I Deal with it. MatrixGod 16:01, February 19, 2012 (UTC) : By "post scratch trolls" you must've meant "pre-scratch trolls". The post-scratch trolls are the twelve troll protagonists of Act 5. Unless we're dealing with entirely different game session from either version of Alternia. Matpmar 04:21, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I'm pretty sure that the only necessary amount of players is two in order to fill space and time roles. Also it doesn't seem likely that she's UU partner because She's dead and UU describes her other player as her brother.--CrystalGriffin 16:44, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Not really anything to do with the rampant lets-guess-who-she-is, but the bit about her being a fantroll reference is stuck underneath the navbox, instead of being up with its friends in Speculation 22:55, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Except we should remember that there are actaully TWO Condensces running around: post-scratch/ancestor (new queen) and pre-scratch/UU's potential co player. 192.168.2.1 21:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC) Not quite Vriska/Mindfang I know on first glance she looks alot like Vriska and Mindfang. But if you look closer you can see similarities to other characters: *One of her horns has a fang like shape, like Kanaya's horn (in contrast to Vriska's stinger shaped horn). *Her hair seems to have a more wavy structure, with the top resembling Jane's and Jake's (okay yeah it's just hair, but still). *Her choice of clothing and general style also seems alot less rough/though compared to Vriska's and Mindfangs. She looks suspiciously fashionable for a troll (then again if she's pre scratch she would live in a troll culture very different from the one we have been shown, so maybe it's just that. But how can she be from a pre scratch univers if she carries the sufferers sign?). So yeah, imo pre-scratch Marquise doesn't quite work as an explanation as to who this is. BitterLime 16:20, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :On the Cancer sign, yeah I noticed that too, so while it is pure speculation I'll just throw it out here; maybe for whatever reason the Cancer sign was a sign used by the pre-scratch trolls as opposed to post-scratch where it only started being used after the Sufferer died. By why is she wearing it? Possibly as a sign of affection towards a troll who bares this sign. But like I said that is basically 100% speculation so yeah. The Light6 16:30, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::There's nothing to say that there wasn't some equivalent to the Signless in the pre-scratch universe. Doc Scratch did call the 24 pre-scratch trolls "legendary heroes". Also, how does the troll girl's horn look like Kanaya's fang horn? It honestly looks exactly like Vriska's stinger horn to me. (Actually, I think she kinda of looks like Terezi) --Universalperson 17:06, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::: :::Kanaya's seems to come more from the tip while Vriska's seems to come more from the side. Kanaya's fang part also is a little nubby while Vriska's is quite long. The dead troll's one seems to come more from the tip and seems a little nubby. The Light6 17:31, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::Hmm...I see your point. --Universalperson 17:50, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :BitterLime: A fair point that her horn doesn't exactly look like Vriska's - in fact, looking at Seer: Ascend her horn doesn't look exactly like Mindfang's either! On the other hand, your other points could just be that the pre-scratch trolls had different hairstyles and fashion sense. My argument about the Sufferer's symbol is outlined above - nothing says pre-scratch Karkat couldn't have started a religion somehow. Basically, I'm not convinced she isn't some version of Mindfang somehow...but then again Hussie has given us red herrings like this before.--Universalperson 17:50, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::It's possible, but that's not the problem. The problem is that pre-scratch Karkat/sufferer would not have a sign. He would be signless, and the religion he would found would have no reason to be associated with the cancer sign. The cancer sign was only given to the sufferer after he had died, it was based on the glowing shackles he wore as torture. Without these events the cancer sign is not associated with the sufferer, and might have a compeletely different meaning in the pre-scratch universe (assuming our unknown troll here really is from the pre-scratch universe). To make this easie to get, if Jesus hadn't died on the cross and had lived a peacful life with his teachings spreading nontheless, then would christianity have the cross as a symbol?BitterLime 18:41, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :::That's a fair point. However, since paradox space likes to rhyme with itself (conceptual simultaneity and all that), it's entirely possible that pre-scratch Karkat was the founder of a major troll religion, thus mirroring his post-scratch counterpart, and that religion he founded ended up with the same symbol for a completely different reason. 04:52, February 29, 2012 (UTC) ::Look at her second horn. It looks like Vriska's second horn. True Kanaya has a similiar horn, but with Blue blood and the same horns, it's kind of obvious that it's Vriska. MatrixGod 20:12, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ::The slight difference in horn shape could be explained away by the sprite vs non sprite appearances. The pics (above) of Kanaya and Vriska are "sprites" in this explanation. And the picture of the unknown troll is more of an evolved sprite or a less symbolic representation (referring to when the Handmaid was asked to render herself into a more symbolic form and she switched from a mature looking image to a normal sprite image) ::Well w/e, just go to Vriska's page, look at the Love-struck picture of her, and then you'll see the horn in question looks exactly the same as our unknown's horn. /shrug 02:58, February 20, 2012 (UTC) ::Sometimes the stinger and the fang horn end up looking the same, that's why I noted in the article that it might be unintentional. But that Jake thinks she might be a "spidery vampire" is again suspicious.BitterLime 10:51, February 21, 2012 (UTC) ::Should it be noted in the article at all. When Vriska and Kanaya are not in pure sprite form, the "stinger" and "fang" horn look exactly the same. Maybe they are the same except when in sprite form because of perspective, since they are on opposite sides. Minus those times when the sprites are flipped, which obviously doesnt count towards the perspective deal since they are sprites and not more accurate drawings. Pretty sure you can dig through all the animated panels featuring the two to see that the horns look the same from the same angles as well. Since then its not only the sprite image being used, its them being drawn for real from those angles. ::I'm only adamant on this because the examples used for the whole horn discussion were sprites. Whereas the image being talked about is not a sprite. That kind of invalidates it as evidence. It seems silly. Welp, the matter will be settled once a sprite version of the dead scorpio troll is shown, if ever. 05:33, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :::In the more detailed drawings Vriska's stinger horn sometimes looks like kanaya's fang horn, but by no means always. Both the hussnasty gallery and the hero mode gallery have an example where vriska's horn is clearly stinger shaped. Anyway, the page already says it's probably unintentional so it doesn't matter. :::But I also wanted to drop something else here. Should the article mention that these similarities are quite possibly related to ectobiology? People have seen aspects of Vriska, Kanaya and Terezi in the unknown scorpio troll (all of them were prospit dreamers), and Meenah clearly has aspects of feferi, but the handmaids hairstyle and elements of eridans typing quirk (ing -->in etc) and his desire to kill. Those three were all derse dreamers. For the kids session the gene mixing directly relates to what kingdom you dream in.bitterLime 10:17, March 25, 2012 (UTC) Dead!John and Vriska's child I would like to pose for discussion and to be added to theories that it is not Mindfang but rather the child of dead John, who was last seen on a date with Vriska. The evidence most based on this: http://imageftw.com/uploads/20120219/vriskjohn.png Her hair is closer in appearance to John's than Mindfang. http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/03749.gif Mindfang's hair is roughly the same as Vriska's And it would kind of make sense should she been born in the afterlife, she would want to meet her grandfather. Hmm intresting theory, I belive that would make sense. MatrixGod 21:52, February 19, 2012 (UTC) it's still unclear whether it is even possible for trolls and Humans to reproduce, and even if they can is it even possible for dead people to have children?CrystalGriffin 23:25, February 19, 2012 (UTC) It could be Dead Vriska and Dead John's baby, after all they went on a " " I think this theory is very doubtful. Trolls and Humans reproduce in different ways so a child between John and Vriska seems impossible and even if trolls and humans can reproduce they're dead. Dead people seem unlikely to have kids. Also I don't think dead people age so John and Vriska being able to have a child at the age of thirteen is probably impossible and even if they did it would stay a child forever. Plus the New troll shows no human characteristics; if she was John's child her horns or skin tone should've been effected. GemstoneChimera We don't know about the reproduction (mainley because if we did it would be porno) but the reason there dead brings a good point. Maximu5awes0meu5 12:30, February 24, 2012 (UTC) Information on reproduction ≠ porn. That being said while we don't know anything about the physical side of it we do know some of the biological side which suggests trolls and humans can't have babies. However there is always ectobiology but I doubt dead people are going around doing a bunch of that. The Light6 Well you have to remember this is in a different timeline, the alpha timeline, so whether vriska and john are dead in the beta timeline has nothing to do with the alpha timeline. But it makes sense how the troll could not be john's kid, due to the lack of characteristics john has. I do have a theory that it could be the kid troll of Kanaya and Vriska. We did note earlier on its taste on fashion, a characteristic Kanaya also enjoys. She could also be the reason the dead troll has a fang horn instead of a stinger horn. Also, Vriska's higher blood than Kanaya's could be a reason why the dead troll is a Scorpio troll instead of a Virgo troll.Gl'bgolyb 05:41, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :Huh, don't really get what you are saying with alpha and beta timelines because it doesn't make sense. The theory that was speculated above was that dead!John and dead!Vriska despite being dead and the biological barriers some how had a child, which having dead parents was born dead itself. Jake meet the Dead Scorpio troll in the Furthest Ring which is where dead people are. So I have no idea what you were trying to say there. That said: I am fairly sure many people have speculative theories on how she is connected to Vriska and Kanaya. The Light6 05:59, February 29, 2012 (UTC) Huh. The page says her shoes are red... When they're really orange. A very vibrant orange. Not the same red as Terezi's glasses or Vriska's shoes. Not at all. And after a few moments of trying to make myself see them as red, now I see it as red-orange, but still not red. Definitely more orange than red if I couldn't describe it as "red-orange" and had to choose between the two. w/e 22:07, February 19, 2012 (UTC) With all of these unknown dead trolls showing up... am I right to think that they may be the dead, older pre-scratch trolls? Like this one may be Vriska, because I've seen the resemblance. Also, that newer Picses troll who showed up, she some-what looks like Feferi! Am I the only one thinking this? -AxelsWifeVIII : Seems likely enough. Also explains why they're dead in the first place, since the pre-scratch trolls failed their Sgrub session, presumably dying as a result. 02:01, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :"newer Picses troll" :"some-what looks like Feferi" :This is like saying the current trolls resemble their ancestors, of course she resembles Feferi, they are both Pisces trolls. :That being said, like the Scorpio dead troll looked like Vriska with a touch of Kanaya, this one looks like Feferi but wears clothes with are much more reminiscent of Sollux or Terezi. The Light6 02:12, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :Has anyone else noticed that both dead trolls have the same glasses? 'I mean there are some differences, like one is tyrian purple while the other is blue, but there practicly the same WH4T NOW 13:14, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :They dont have the same glasses. Scorpio troll has thin white glasses. The blue is part of the design (outline of) of her eye and eye lashes. Like with Vriska. Picses troll has the tyrian purple glasses or goggles with the black bridge. Looks similar to the eyewear the Condesce wears except with less decoration. Ectobiology Each new troll including UU seems to bear similarities to 2 trolls each. what if all the new trolls are ectobiological fusions of living and dead trolls. If each post-scratch kid is visited by a dead new troll we will have 4 new dead trolls + 2 living new trolls (UU and her partner) with the end result being 6 new trolls having the DNA of the original 12.--CrystalGriffin 20:58, February 29, 2012 (UTC) Being pedantic I know it's very trivial but since we now know who Meenah is and presumably we will find out who the unknown Pisces troll is, shouldn't the name of the page be changed to something along the lines of Post scratch trolls.......... ¬,¬ ....... Pisciean Trickster 12:36, March 25, 2012 (UTC) I think you mean the Scorpio troll. Also we still don't know if it is Vriska (like 15% chance of Vriska) and even if it isn't, they are contacting eachother through Trollian not real talking, so we might not still know her name is yet. And after that, it is said that uu and UU are going to be the only ones in the session so they might just stay in the dream bubbles and not play Sgrub and they would just be dream bubble trolls. So possibly dream bubble trolls??? (Oh wait I just thought they could join the game later but I'm to lazy to add it.) 12:58, March 25, 2012 (UTC) As likely as it is that those two are pre-scratch trolls, for now nothing is really confirmed. And I wouldn't bother thinking too much about this page when the unknown scorpio troll will get her own page at one point most likely. I'm also pretty sure uu and UU are totally unrelated to the pre-scratch trolls.bitterLime 13:12, March 25, 2012 (UTC) They aren't talking through trollian otherwise it would show their handle not their names.Also I can't help thinking UU and uu have something to do with all dream bubble trolls.it seems way to convenient that two separate groups of trolls are messing with the post scatch kids.Also uu mentioned the so wherever he is there are a lot of dead trolls so it is likely the dream bubble trolls are among those corpses. GemstoneChimera :I think people put too much into that line, for example: Look at pre-Hivebent Alternia, saying that same thing would probably be true there. I mean if a race is around long enough 100 billion of them will live and die, really all the quote says in context is that uu has no intention of dying. The Light6 20:28, March 25, 2012 (UTC) :Terezi is seen going on her computer, meaning she will talking to the Scorpio troll (still can't say it's not Vriska) through Trollian. It does not count for Meenah because she was talking to John directly. I am the wizard its me 22:09, March 25, 2012 (UTC) Possibly.... 6666 Is the number for the pre scratch trolls? My only evidence of this is, that it was the first page one of the pre scratch trolls first talked through Trollain (Likely 6666 is not the number) I am the wizard its me 19:13, March 26, 2012 (UTC) Rufio Wouldn't it be just like Hussie to name the pre-scratch Summoner, aka Mr Nitram, is named Rufio. This is just me speculating, but the thought of it... Patman12 08:53, May 31, 2012 (UTC) :I doubt it, all the troll names so far are 6 letters, Rufio is 5. I mean it does sound like a direction it could go but I doubt Hussie would name him exactly that, rather something similar with 6 letters. The Light6 10:40, May 31, 2012 (UTC) :Maybe his name is Rufioo Ooooo! (Exclamation mark included)? ;D JET73L (talk) 09:23, July 25, 2012 (UTC) :: :P But to be serious, I can't recall if it was before or after Calliope revealed her troll name but I saw someone else suggest it could be Rufio with one of the letters doubled (I think the suggestion was "Ruffio") but yeah that idea didn't occur to me at the time. But yeah now I think it much more likely that it is Ruffio (or as per your idea Rufioo). The Light6 (talk) 09:29, July 25, 2012 (UTC) :::and yet that is EXACTLY what Huss would do, establish a rule and then break it. 17:11, July 25, 2012 (UTC) ::He did do that for The Grand Highblood. By the way, I also think Ruufio is a possibility. And along this line of discussion, I'm personally putting my money on Jeegus Vantas or Jeguss Vantas, or per felinoel's suggestion, simply Jegus Vantas. 17:14, July 25, 2012 (UTC) :::idk why everyone calls him Jegus, why not Jandhi? There was more than one person in history who stood for peace and love. 17:37, July 25, 2012 (UTC) While that is true, Jegus was a word used in the comic whereas Jandhi was not. More importantly, the story of The Signless very closely matches the story of Jesus. That said, though, I would not at all be disappointed if he was named Jandhi, or any other variation of the name. 18:43, July 25, 2012 (UTC) ::::What? The Sufferer barely had any story shown, how could so little be a basis for matching him with Jesus? 20:09, July 25, 2012 (UTC) :::I don't really feel like typing it all out, just read all of the bullets under "Several ancestors can be interpreted as direct references to characters from the biblical tales involving Jesus Christ." in the Trivia section on the ancestors page. It should become clear. 01:56, July 26, 2012 (UTC) ::I agree with Aepokk. We'll probably see more of Sufferer when we see him in a dream bubble like meenah and aranea (if he does which is going to happen eventually). Plus his personality, his stories of the other ancestors (especially dolorosa and psiionic who acted like Mary and John the Baptist) all help with the Jesus speculation. } 02:50, July 26, 2012 (UTC) :::Interesting, I guess I will just wait then. 13:08, July 26, 2012 (UTC) 9 Sweeps?!?!?!? I'm sorry, where was it established that these guys are nineteen years old??? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the infoboxes say 7 or so sweeps? Camean (talk) 23:35, August 31, 2012 (UTC) :I think that is going off the assuption that they started playing Sgrub at 6 Solar Sweeps, however after their failure at the game they spent 3 sweeps living in their null session before they decided to scratch it. The Light6 (talk) 00:21, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :But because you don't age if you're dead, wouldn't that make them still 7 sweeps? Camean (talk) 01:53, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :They spent 3 sweeps in game not dead. They've spent millinia dead. UvaroviteUriel (talk) 01:58, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :Wait WOW YOU'RE RIGHT I'M AN IDIOT. Still, they don't look 19... i'm confused. Camean (talk) 12:46, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :It never said they started the game at the same age as the trolls, they could have easily entered younger. Remember that Homestuck was originally supposed to start with 10 year olds instead of 13 year olds. 15:11, September 4, 2012 (UTC) Confusing theory : One theory extrapolates that pre-scratch Alternia could be a universe which is created at the end of the successful session of the B2 humans. In this case, it would be somewhat like the circumstances of the post-scratch trolls and pre-scratch humans, except reversed; with the trolls contacting their creators. If so, Aranea is the original Mindfang who is part of the Alternians who will cause the scratch previously alluded to in the story. Hold up. We've already established Aranea is part of those that scratched A1, and Mindfang's A1 incarnation, we don't need a universe creation loop to get her there. I... what. 00:29, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :That is a tiny bit out of date and poorly wrote but I believe you've misunderstood what it was trying to say. The troll universe had to come from a session of players who played before them, Aranea came from A1, which isn't the FIRST FIRST universe, just the first in the current group of them but someone had to create it, the theory was that the B2 session would create it when the Genesis Frog is allowed to grow in Skaia. The Light6 (talk) 00:54, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :It seems incredibly unlikely that B2 connects to A1. Based on how many of the more well informed characters act there have been manyother sessions before the trolls. Based on current information it is more likely that B2 connects to the cherub's session (Is there a term for that like U1 or something?). As caliborn's session could be considered the first and B2 is most likely the last as the final goal is to beat English, like a big ouroboros in one giant circle.UvaroviteUriel (talk) 01:12, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :@light6 still seems incredibly unlikely. based on current facts Lord English's session would be the first since he is essentially god of the game. while B2 would be the last as the ultimate goal would be to defeat english. We have also seen from the JPEG artifacts that those sessions are somehow connected. the troll sessions is one of many inbetween the first and last and therfore created from another groups session.(While only a joke hussie has stated that there was a group of 48 squiddles).UvaroviteUriel (talk) 01:55, September 1, 2012 (UTC) The troll universe had to come from a session of players who played before them ::What? Why? 13:08, September 6, 2012 (UTC) Page Separation Suggestion I think this entire page should first be divided into pre-scratch and post-scratch. Each half should contain the culture, quirks, etc. that make it different from the other half. General things like troll biology should probably be put before or after the pre-scratch and post-scratch sections. Also, maybe there should be a separate page made for the post-scratch troll players (Karkat, Terezi, Gamzee, etc.) and it should be specifically about them only. AnimeApprentice (talk) 12:09, September 23, 2012 (UTC) :There is certainly a case for rearranging how we describe the two cultures, but I don't think we need two vast halves of the page. Just subheadings under the culture section will suffice. And we absolutely do not need a page for the set of alpha trolls. Yes, it would make theoretical sense since we do currently have a page for all of the beta trolls, but that page is rapidly becoming redundant, and in fact may well be deleted as soon as we have Nitram and Zahhak appear in the comic, so that we can make standalone articles for them as we have for the rest of the trolls ::I think since there is a drastic difference between the two that they should be on separate articles myself... 19:59, September 24, 2012 (UTC) :::If we were to make a separate article out of this, I could perhaps see it being "troll culture", I suppose. That's about the only thing that I think might warrant a dedicated article, though – we really don't need a whole suite of articles about trolls as a species. We already split off Hemospectrum, with good reason, so I'm wary of making even more splits unless they are carried out to a similar standard, and, of course, are similarly warranted. If someone wants to draft out a "troll culture" article in , I would actively encourage it, and we'll see how that goes before making a decision ::::No good reason? The Beforusites and the Alternians are two completely different cultures, having them merged together in one outdated article is like having the humans merged with the cherubs in one article. 12:52, September 25, 2012 (UTC) :::::There are not words to describe how fundamentally stupid that comparison is. Unless I somehow missed it being canon that humans and cherubs are the same species. So, to address the ''saner half of your comment... :::::First of all, they are not totally different cultures. Superficially they seem to be, sure, plenty is indeed different. But we have had a few subtle hints that there are dark sides to the Beforan culture that echo the more familiar Alternian culture. Depends how much we trust anything Kankri says on the matter, and I don't think he actually lies. Exaggerates, but not lies. :::::Secondly, of course the cultures should be in the same article, and for that matter the same section. Comparing and contrasting them if they were substantially separated would require preposterous amounts of redundancy in calling back and forth to something mentioned in a totally different body of text. :::::Finally, the article being outdated is completely irrelevant. No, really, it is. If it's outdated, update it. The issue at hand is whether the information should be reorganised in some way, but that is a separate matter to whether the information is correct. Don't confuse the two ::::::Firstly, I tried to update the article, that first paragraph in particular, but... it needs to be removed completely and rewritten... ::::::Secondly, just because two things are made up of the same thing, does not mean that the difference in how they came to be doesn't change them at all, the Alternians were purposefully made to be vicious, sure there was a relatively evil guy here and there with the Befousites because that is how people work, but the Alternians found murder to be so commonplace that they just didn't care and even laughed about it. Tavros lived in constant fear of his inevitable culling because of his handicap. 14:47, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :::::::Of course it doesn't mean they aren't changed, I just said that there are differences. But the whole issue is about comparing the two cultures, and they have to be side by side in order to make useful comparisons! The two cultures should be discussed alongside one another. Which, as I said, should be either a culture section with two subsections, or a culture article with two sections. But '''not separate articles for the two cultures, as that would completely defeat the purpose of covering both of them! It isn't the same as comparing humans and cherubs, because they are only worth comparing on broad levels due to being different species. It is precisely because the Beforan and Alternian cultures are both troll cultures that we have so many finer points to compare and contrast between them! :::::::As to the matter of rewriting, again, ::::::::Then the entire article needs to be rewritten, it needs to talk about JUST the trolls and then in subsections the differences between the two different factions can be added. 15:07, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::If you believe that is the action that needs to be taken, then by all means, you are welcome and encouraged to take it... however, overhauling an article of this size and importance on that scale is most definitely something that should be done in a sandbox first as demonstration. That's really all there is to say on the matter. Debating the restructure is only so useful, and I think at this point we've wrung out just about all the use we can from it. Now, people are absolutely welcome to copy the whole page into a sandbox, modify it as they see fit, and present the sandbox by linking to it here. With that done, we can decide what we think of any such proposed layouts, and then actually make some progress :3 ::::::::::Which is exactly why I am for renaming the article and making a new article for the Beforusites. 15:53, September 26, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::: abjures the hell out of that idea -- 16:09, September 26, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::::''ƒelinoel adjudicates 's hell removing abjuration.'' 16:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC) I am just going to go ahead and start anew on the indenting. Having a separate page for the A1 culture makes no sense really as it stands now the current section is a mixture of biology and culture, assuming you separate it out into two separate sections ("biology" and "culture") I don't see why one culture should take preference over the other. Really to split it off into a separate article that was consistent would just be a whole article of troll culture which is already like half this article. The simple answer is no matter how you cut it, there really isn't a justification for making a new article. Maybe this current article as it stands needs to be completely be rewritten from scratch, fine do it, but that isn't justification for splitting a single article into multiple articles, unless the rewritten article is of sufficient size to justify doing so (which I highly doubt it would). I've completely rewritten articles before, some times it is just a thing that needs doing, and in this case it is. The Light6 (talk) 16:17, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :That was already said and my response to it was that I am not going to do it (due to the enormity and importance of the article) and it appears as though no one else will step up. 16:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :Going to weigh in on this: I think that the differences in troll culture should be discussed in two subsections of a culture section. 16:20, September 26, 2012 (UTC) ::I said that too, I also went on to say that if we do it this way then the entire article needs to not be based on either Alternians or Beforusites besides those two subsections. 16:24, September 26, 2012 (UTC) :::Well, yeah, duh. Technically that's already the case up to a certain caveat: that the page is outdated. Which is, as I said before, a separate issue. So obviously, yes, all sections would be about the species generally, except where highlighting contrasts relevant to that section. That's kind of the point that I've been making from the start. :::Also, "ƒelinoel adjudicates skaiarorNetbody's hell removing abjuration." is not a thing that started being true or anything. And never will be. I'm not sure how you expect to accomplish it, frankly ::::I couldn't find a good adj- word for noting something so I went wiith abjudicate which is kind of close... and hey you are the one who said your abjuration removes hell, "abjures the hell out of that idea." 16:45, September 26, 2012 (UTC) "Leaked" sprites The conditional probability that the "leaked" sprites for Damara, ?????? Zahhak, and ?????? Nitram are correct has gone way up since it turned out that Cronus, Mituna, Kurloz, and Meulin were right. Should we put them back in? --EskayFlying (talk) 02:00, September 25, 2012 (UTC) :I guess so. There's no reason we shouldn't. } 02:31, September 25, 2012 (UTC) ::I agree that the probability is higher, but it's still not 100%. So no, no adding Damara and Zahhak until they appear. We have Nitram, as of today's page, and he has wings, which the leaked sprite does not. So that proves right away that we can't rely on those sprites. We should, as before, wait for canonical certainty Pre scratch troll updating HS was just updated, and we finally get to see the last 3 trolls. I added Rufioh and Horuss to the name list, now we should get around to adding in the talksprites for Rufioh, Damara, and Horuss. FortelKonkurent (talk) 01:52, October 22, 2012 (UTC) uniform for each section So the post-scratch trolls all are in their normal sprite form, which is great. But in the pre-scratch trolls section we only have Meenah and Aranea in sprite form, and the others as their talk portrait thingies. This is ofcourse because we have nothing else, but since that might be the case for a while...How about we use the talk portraits for Meenah and Aranea as well? Until we get the sprites of all pre-scratch trolls. 13:52, October 25, 2012 (UTC) :Change the standard? I dunno... 14:33, October 25, 2012 (UTC) ::Well it is less changing the standard rather than keeping each section internally consistent when intra-section consistency is currently impossible. I say go for it, we've been using the talksprites for Aranea and Meenah on the pre-scratch troll page. I guess if we ultimately want the two sections to match up, we don't have to wait until we get all the symbolic sprites for the A1 trolls, just a simply majority (e.g. 7 symbolic sprites to 5 talksprites). But that is just my opinion on future matters. - The Light6 (talk) 15:37, October 25, 2012 (UTC) Age: Redux It was previous brought up on the page but I am bringing it up again in a fresh topic. We probably need to change the ages we have for the A1 trolls. While we know they spent 3 sweeps in their session, it has never been confirmed that they did start their session at 6 sweeps old. I mean while they do seem older than the A2 trolls, even now when they are currently 15 years (7 sweeps) old, we still can't judge how much older they are. Anyhow my point is, we don't know at what age they entered. - The Light6 (talk) 14:55, December 16, 2012 (UTC) :(bump) Yeah, not sure where people got that from. 19:03, December 16, 2012 (UTC) ::For the meteor trolls, I think we should list two age snapshots, one for the start of Hivebent and one for the end of A6I5. For the dead trolls, I think we should list their age at the time of death (or perhaps we could list their ages as something along the lines of "Unknown (6 Alternian solar sweeps / 13 Earth years at the time of death)"). For Aradia and Sollux, I think we should list their Havebent ages, and their approximate ages as of the end of A6I5. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:19, July 17, 2013 (UTC) New trolls Aren't there 2 new trolls on one page, but they promptly get killed? I wonder who they are? 22:32, March 9, 2013 (UTC) :Canon fan trolls BUCKETS! SO I'd realized something and wanted to share it with the community- WHY BUCKETS ARE IMPORTANT BUT VULGAR Buckets hold the genetic material. Said buckets are emptied into the "FILIAL PAILS," as referenced here. I couldn't edit the page to add that in, so I thought I'd share it here so an ADMIN or something could see it. Theroyalcuttler (talk) 23:02, April 8, 2013 (UTC) Melissa, The cuddly cuttler EDIT: I stupidly forgot to add the link: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004296 :This isn't new information? I am kinda failing to see the point. - The Light6 (talk) 00:46, April 9, 2013 (UTC) ::Ditto, I was under the impression this was common knowledge. And I'm pretty sure the buckets are the filial pails, what's the point of filling up two buckets only to empty them into two other buckets? 02:24, April 9, 2013 (UTC) Mutants IMO this article could use some more details about mutants, but what do we actually know about mutants? I know that the Vantases, Sollux and Rufioh are canonically mutants, but have any other trolls been canonically established as mutants? Were Vriska's eye and Equius's strength ever confirmed to be mutations, or was it just sort of implied? -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:34, July 17, 2013 (UTC) :I think it was implied that Aranea has the same eye, especially on account of her wings. Equius's strength was actually stated as him "just being kind of a freak." I forget if Horuss is as strong or not, but if he isn't then that's confirmation that Equius's staus is weird, though idk if strength counts as a "mutation". 04:23, July 17, 2013 (UTC) ::Yeah Aranea has the same eye because Mindfang has the same eye. And yes, Horuss is just as strong he mentions using "de-powering gloves" in Openbound so he can handle things like a normal person. - The Light6 (talk) 05:20, July 17, 2013 (UTC) :::Alright so Horuss does have it too, but I think it still might just be exclusive to them as per the previously mentioned comment about Equius's strength. 07:26, July 17, 2013 (UTC) ::::Also, I don't think "mutant" has been used in the context of psychic powers except when referring to Sollux's vision twofold . So while I'm guessing that the Serkets' trademark vision eightfold would probably be considered a mutation, I'm guessing that their telepathic abilities probably wouldn't. It might be a better idea to call the section something along the lines of "mutations, psychic powers and special abilities", so that we can cover all the rare troll superpowers like the Zahhaks' super-strength, Terezi's smellovision and the Maryams' rainbow drinker abilities without having to worry about whether they're mutations, psychic powers, both or neither. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:21, July 17, 2013 (UTC) Bottom line, the overarching question here is "Are the powers of our player characters typical of their caste or not?" And while Sollux's psychic powers are pretty typical, I think his split brain and vision twofold probably are mutations. 17:25, July 17, 2013 (UTC) Should we fork off a separate article for troll biology? I think we should consider creating a separate article on troll biology, so that we can keep track of what's been canonically established or vaguely hinted at, with quotes and page references, without having to worry about cluttering up the main troll article. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:01, August 1, 2013 (UTC) :I think it was previously suggested that troll culture be split off into its own article. However given the multiple ways that troll culture and biology overlap. I would say that most of the troll biology stuff in the current article doesn't have much to do with those things, so I suspect that a troll biology article might work better and the remaining biology and cultural sections of this article could be merged into an "Culture and Biology" section. - The Light6 (talk) 02:32, August 1, 2013 (UTC) ::I was thinking of basically covering all the miscellaneous stuff that isn't detailed enough to warrant its own article like quadrants, the hemospectrum or the symbiotic relationship between trolls and various types of lusus naturae. Stuff like horns, wigglers, pupation, eye colour, bones, mutations, anguish bladders , dismay fluid, pity humors and the tidbit about how troll teeth usually grow back . -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:03, August 1, 2013 (UTC)